RHOBH S13E16 & Vanderpump Rules S11E03 Recap/Analysis (feat. Dan Lefebvre) | Bravo Outsider Podcast

This week hosts Craig Midwinter and Dylan Ferguson are joined by Dan Lefebvre of the Based on a True Story podcast ( @BasedonaTrueStoryPodcast ) for a discussion about the relationship between truth and drama in terms of how it exists in films based on true stories and reality tv! We also dig into S11E03 of Vanderpump Rules and Real Housewives of Beverly Hills S13E16.

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00:00 - Intro 01:03 - Roundtable: Truth vs Drama 13:34 - Real Housewives of Beverly Hills Recap 34:04 - Vanderpump Rules Recap 1:02:11 - Outro

🍸Featured Bravolebs:

Vanderpump Rules: Lisa Vanderpump, Tom Schwartz, Tom Sandoval, Ariana Madix, Katie Maloney, Scheana Shay, Lala Kent, James Kennedy, Ally Lewber, Brock Davies

RHOBH: Kyle Richards, Erika Girardi, Dorit Kemsley, Garcelle Beauvais, Crystal Kung Minkoff, Sutton Stracke, Annemarie Wiley

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Find Based on a True Story online at

Find Dylan Ferguson on Substack at

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📖 Credits

Music by FASSounds from Pixabay


[Music] hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider podcast I'm your host Craig midwinter joined Again by my co-host Dylan Ferguson Dylan how are you doing doing great yeah over my sickness feeling healthy feeling spunky feeling feel ready to fight you about these shows okay I'm looking forward to it our guest today is the host of a fantastic podcast called Bas on a true story it's Dan leab my advice to you don't Hustle the Hustler now I feel Fred I think I'm going to be fighting with Dan by the end of this I come in peace I come in peace uh do you want to let everyone know about your your podcast Dan uh yeah sure well as you mentioned it's it's based on a true story so basic premise behind my show is to talk about the real history behind movies so you know how much of the Titanic actually happened or something like that and obviously everybody knows movies are fictional but what they change varies in each one so dig into the real story behind that yeah it's it's a fantastic podcast like I said and I love that you do this thorough explanation about the the Delta between like the drama and and the truth because I think that that is something that's really at the core of the reality TV Medium as well because reality TV has a similar line to walk in terms of balancing the truth behind the actual events and how to dramatize it for the audience so I thought it would be fun to have a little bit of a Roundtable discussion um um I've got a few questions but I I want to know kind of right out of the gate on a whole when you're going into a movie that has been like based on a true story what sort of expectations do you have and uh what what sort of Liberties are you expecting the the filmmakers to to take um the two biggest ones are timeline and characters uh just because you have these stories where you know you're trying to compress years into an hour and a half or two hours you're going to expect the timeline to change and so a lot of times it's very drastically changed um and then characters it's really hard to follow a lot of people I I think a good a real good example of this I talked to I don't know if you've seen Dunkirk I talked to a Joshua Levine who is the historical consultant on that movie and he made a really great point that you're you're telling the sto this story of dunk but most people's experiences were very very different at Dunkirk and so when you're trying to tell this story like there's the soldiers that were on the beach but then you know when I was talking with the consultant he's like well one Veteran's story of Dunkirk was he found an ambulance and he hid in there for a few days and that was his Dunkirk experience very different than what you see in the movie doesn't invalidate the other things but there's just so many different experiences that we all have and we see things from different perspectives and so you're going to expect that you know there's got to be some bias or people's perspectives that you're coming from for sure I I'm curious do you have much of like a background have you watched any other reality TV uh prior to this um I mean I'd like to watch like cooking shows and things like that I put on put on that kind of stuff in the background while I'm researching so I don't really pay a lot of attention to it um kind of noise in the background but I don't think I've ever seen anything on Bravo before yeah I I'm curious like how your uh expectations that you have just based on all of the the material that you've watched before if that had any effect on your expectations going into this or um were your expectations completely different I I I mean I think I have my expectations of it's called reality TV but I don't expect it to be real just like you know people don't expect movies to to be entirely accurate either but I also do kind of expect it to be a little more realistic than a straightup movie or a dramatized TV show uh but also there were some things and we can maybe talk about them when we talk in in the episodes but there are some things where I'll notice something where it's like okay that's obviously dramatized for this show and I noticed that a few times in in some of the episodes we'll be talking about today totally uh Dylan while we're talking about the like expectation of truth I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts on that in particular um yeah I mean I I think it is pretty interesting that you could compare that a lot to the way uh uh you would have a movie based on a true story except that uh the work in creating a semblance of reality without being able to include every version of reality is done in the screenplay phase generally for a movie whereas we're watching shows where that's done in the editing phase which is kind of interesting like you have to I think a lot of the challenges are similar in the sense that like you have to find moments or characters that maybe represent multiple things but you just want one representative instance because you can't include like you know the the multiple times that something like this happened you just need one instance that will just give you an idea of the kind of things that are going on uh but yeah the real difference in reality TV is I think you have to find a moment like that amongst the footage that's been shot that you're then gonna uh shoehorn into the edit so I think that's that's kind of interesting to me that the challenges are similar but at what stage of production uh you have that that kind of decision window where you you make those choices is is different it's it's post rather than pre yeah that's that's a good point and another kind of question that I had for you Dan was like since since film is a collaborative medium of a lot of different artistic Visions I was curious if you find that certain roles um tend to have more of an obligation to the truth than others like say a costume designer wanting to capture the period uh more truthfully than a screenwriter might want to capture events if you've noticed any any Trends I think I think different different uh positions certainly can I mean you mentioned things like costumes and such like that I think they that's not going to have as big of an impact on the story usually I'm speaking generally of course there may always be exceptions of things like that um but I think ultimately in a movie it boils down to the director I can give another example of another historical consultant I talked to um on the movie the 2004 movie The Alamo about you know B at the Elmo Dr Harden was the consultant on that night when I was talking with him he gave he told me something that has always kind of stuck with me I like to use it as an example of these things where he's like when he went to the director about one of the scenes he's like this didn't actually happen this is not what happened and this is he goes on to tell him what actually happened and the director told him he said I appreciate you telling me this your role as a as a historical adviser is to tell me what actually happened but I might change it I want to like I still want you to keep telling me these things right so that I can make it a conscious decision it's not I'm not slipping up and and telling it wrong but I'm making these differences for Creative cinematic reasons because the director made a great point he's like end of the day this is a movie and we have to get people to watch it in order to pay the bills right I mean it's I'm paraphrasing it's not exactly what he said but that same sort of concept and so I think everybody understands that their role is going to have a part to play and it might help to be more historically accurate but in other cases I I have talked with um others who speaking of you know costumes and such he wasn't involved with the costumes he was another consultant but he mentioned things like um I think this was for Master and Commander if I remember right some of the some of the uniforms that they were were actually not really accurate they were kind of a mishmash of different uniforms and such but visually they just looked better on screen and so you know it's a creative decision to make of sometimes you're you're going to have that and end of the day this movie but yeah yeah DL uh what do you think no I mean that is really interesting that you're saying that and I think that's something that's that you have to keep in mind when you watch movies whether they're based on a true story or not is that it is like an expressive medium and it's not I think people who understand movies really well the great filmmakers say you know they they know that it's not a question about trying to create the best the best simulation of reality you can it's about trying to create a certain uh a certain Vibe a certain world and whatever it takes to transmit the emotions and ideas that you want to transmit um there's uh there's one story I really like not not really about adapting Real History because I'm talking about the Lord of the Rings movies but there is one story from the set of The Lord of the Rings that I really enjoy is that uh at one point they're filming I think like the NZ ghouls or something and and the the production designer was setting up like a backlight To Shine from behind and one of the actors one of The Hobbit actors I think it was Sean Aid or something went up to the the production designer and said I just have one question where's the light coming from and the production designer replied the same place the music is you know you know it's some people get stuck on the idea that oh you're trying to create reality no you're not you're trying to create a work of art um obviously that's not exactly the same thing from adapting historical Source but you know if somebody's like a talented filmmaker they understand that the assignment is not just about creating the most accurate record possible it's about making a work of art um in terms of reality TV it gets a lot more Mudd muddled I think because there's is like like you said Craig it's very collaborative there's all these like you know real- time decisions being made in a scene there's kind of um imagining what it's like during filming on a reality TV show there's definitely going to be a lot of kind of a dialogue going on between the production team and the performers as well as what the performers are having a dialogue between themselves um and at the end of the day they know that everything that they're collaborating to put together is going to end up in an editing room and then somebody's going to pick the points that they want to to build the narrative the way that they feel works best and transmits the key ideas best um that's something that I think is very uh exciting to be watching the shows too it's because you have that in your mind too you you recognize that these people are you know they're in a certain sense living their lives they're having conversations that are important to them but they're of course very aware of the fact that they're also performing a scene and that that that uh that there's a dialogue they're having with the producers and a sort of you know temporarily delayed dialogue that they're going to be having with the editors they know that they that like certain things are more likely to be picked to included in the episode or not depending on what they say and it just adds to that kind of complexity of building some version of reality uh within each scene totally it's much faster Pace too in in TV than with movies you think of movies like mentioning Lord of the Rings right I mean take years to make these as opposed to these decisions are having to making reality TV I'm not 100% sure exactly how much they are but I imagine a lot faster than they have in film yeah exactly right yeah the only other thing I might add um you mentioning about uh talking about the the nasol and the the example of of Lord of the Rings an example that I could give uh from an actual well sort of based on a true story movie would be Saving Private Ryan um with the the sniper rifle that one of the characters was using Barry Pepper's character was a complete mismatch when I talked to hisor about that he was saying you know that Steven Spielberg was like the actual sniper rifles that they had in World War II didn't look like the audience would expect a sniper rifle to look like and so they actually got one from Vietnam area and mismatched and and did all that um similar to like uh Jurassic Park like this is what we expect movies to look like you know talk stor about that so there's there's definitely that element of what the audience expects does play into some of the decisions that they make as well yeah for sure totally all right I we've got both Beverly Hills and Vanderpump Rules that we want to cover today so uh let's let's jump right into it Dan did either of these stand out to you as maybe more compelling where would you like to start um I could start with either one I um I watched V Vander pump rules first and then I watched the um Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and so I couldn't help but compare Real Housewives to Vander pump I think because I had watched that one first and I guess in a summary I Vander pump seemed more real to me than um Real Housewives did uh there were some things I noticed in Real Housewives that just was like this is obviously staged and just not real Let's uh yeah let's use that as a as a launching Point here what uh what's it out to you as feeling maybe inauthentic in Beverly Hills um I think the the biggest thing was the episode that we watched there there was a scene where I think it was garel got it they were doing a you can join us a video for a g on me charity cyber smile I think it was called something about cyber bullying but in this episode they were recording a video and we could see her other son Jade I think it was his name uh holding up Q cards for her to read from and right the the other guy to read from and they got the video done and okay there were some you know kind of jokes in there dro the card too soon that kind of stuff and then when they got up to leave I could see there's a tripod with a camera and a teleprompter right there teleprompter like you don't need Q cards you don't need the Q cards if there's a teleprompter there which also when when they were doing it I was like what this is all on TV they have these cutaways with Talking Heads surely they have video equipment there why are they doing this with the phone and you know some newer LED panels and you know like that so I was like that's weird and then I saw the teleprompt I was like oh they did use that they just staged this other part for it so that was one of the things that stood out to me I was like okay yeah totally um so I want to start us off with a little segment called housewives in a hurry we're going to put like a 20 second timer on uh and I just want you to run through the episode and in terms of what stood out to you and I'll start the time now um well I mean initially it was the there was a mother's Mother's Day party going on uh that was planned with a caterer which I thought was a very elaborate Mother's Day party and then there's a lot of different conversations with uh Sutton rides her horse for the first time uh was that the 20 seconds already yeah yeah into like the first few minutes yeah no but that's that's good it it kind of keys in on um you know what themes come are sort of front of mind as soon as you watch the episode I'm curious if either of you guys found any of the um the storytelling choices or um any any symbolism that you wanted to call out before we get into it um can we talk about s's horse again because I'm still like wondering why Sutton's making her whole life about a horse tr shall we okay you know I I think I touched this last episode but I feel like we didn't like really get into it you know what does this horse represent for but never that it's the thing that she's trying to rebuild her identity around Cally yeah do you have any I'm not sure I mean I guess it's like a sense of Freedom right like she's like you know she's now single so I guess that's like horses traditionally do represent freedom in the western imagination um I guess that's maybe like the idea of of being able to to ride it and also just being like valuable piece of property that she has and just being able to look at it Gallop free and uh under the the the huge California skies and and and and feel that drink in that sense of of of allamerican freedom I I literally don't know I'm spitball here but I just she goes on and on about this [ __ ] horse about this is like her project what she has to has to do wants to make sure it's on camera why is the horse so important to s the impression I got from that oh sorry oh no go ahead I was I mean again I've only watched this one episode but the impression I got was she I think she mentioned something about how she had horses as a kid in Texas or something and she there you go rosebug right there yeah so that's what the impression what really confused me about that though was this was the episode mentioned that it was the her first time riding the horse but then she mentions when she's talking with uh Kyle there I think after the horse ride which was just a few seconds I don't know how long actually was but you know in the in the episode it's just a few seconds and then Sutton's talking with Kyle about how I think Kyle ask how long it's been since the divorce and Sutton's like well it's been six or seven years and I'm like wait a minute and but this was something to like help her get over that like that but this was six or seven years ago maybe I'm missing a lot but it just seems like that's that's a while ago to just now have this thing to help you get over it yeah it seems like a very long period of mourning you're you're right I think like so in terms of the like The Narrative of this season just last week we finally saw her kind of mourning her previous life and we're seeing her experience a bit of a a rebirth so I think both of those reads are really aligned with what I had and I I picked out this scene this scene as well and one of the things that really stood out to me and I think this ties in with Dylan your re of the the horse you know representing freedom is the the sound up that they chose to include of Kyle when she walked in talking about how uh Sutton looks uncomfortable on this horse I we certain sut's even ridden a horse before yeah how she's like trying to navigate this New Freedom in a like awkward and uncomfortable way which is really what we're seeing her do as she's pursuing um you know new relationships and the dating scene and um really just awkwardly trying to discover what her you know her post divorce life is is like yeah that's true it definitely is like an an awkward transition for her and and you're right they underline that in the edit by by pointing out that she's not she's not that good at riding this horse maybe maybe she needs a lot more practice maybe she needs to figure out how to how to how to feel more free um do you think it's a good thing or a bad sign that s shows up to the champag and diamonds Mother's Day brunch [ __ ] lit just this wanders in [ __ ] face with a roie immediately starts pouring herself a huge glass of vodka and then drunkenly realizes how much she's part of her glass and starts pouring it down the sink is is this is is this a good side that she's feeling so free now that she's that she's so happy about how her date went that she's like just like [ __ ] Cutting Loose or is this a side that things are worse than we think think with that that she's spiraling uh yeah just she's just like fitting into that like cowboy lifestyle I think she's just like easing into it I don't [Laughter] know yeah the impression I got with that was that um she's she's not moving very fast I mean you mentioned the date and um again based on my memory of that I think she they mentioned that the first date was like a month ago and then this one in this episode is the second date so um a month time in between just tells me that it's probably not moving so fast yeah and uh you know she's and which seems to be on you know on character if she's still mourning the loss of you know a divorce from six or seven years ago that uh she's just not moving fast so maybe maybe the drinking is is a part of that too where it's she still has some stuff to get over yeah she's just seems like she's stumbling through life looking for a handrail literally walking up the up the steps she was literally looking for the handrail to get up there yeah exactly yeah uh let's get into our highlights Dan what were your highlights from this episode um I think really what stood out to me and this kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier where I watched Vander pump rules first and so I couldn't help but but compare but this seemed really chaotic to me I had a hard time following the story lines in this one a lot more just because I think they tried to do a lot more um a lot more there's there's so many characters well there's like seven main characters uh and then it's just that's just hard to follow with all these different storylines especially for somebody like me who hasn't watched all these other story lines to figure out what all is going on um especially being dropped in at the end of the season like you are here this is like the 16th episode I didn't know it was the end of the season until at the end they're like oh and the season finale next week uh yeah but I think with with that said I think something that really stood out to me as a highlight that I noticed different I maybe I just didn't notice it in Van of PR rules but I noticed with with Housewives they do have the little um Motion Graphics bumper when okay we're shifting to this other person's storyline now we're doing this where it's not they do some back and forth without really doing that but I appreciated that they're like okay now we're really focusing on this person's storyline and now we're really doing this because that helped me follow a little bit more rather than just assuming that this was somebody that I don't know yet that's still involved in this person storyline it I had to go look up who the lady was that Sutton was talking to at the horse thing that that was actually one of the other Housewives to know that so oh yeah so things like that like I don't know who's involved in what storyline totally yeah uh Dylan what what were your highlights from this um you're not going to be surprised that I just like every time Erica's on screen I like seeing Erica with her therapist we've seen them before because I I it always feels like her therapist like is like administering the Voit comp test to her the tortoise lays on its back its belly baking in the hot sun beating its legs trying to turn itself over but it can't not without your help but you're not helping what do you mean I'm not help I mean trying to to determine if there's like any shred of humanity inside this this woman um and uh and and she's the best uh she had my favorite uh little moment in the episode where Sutton's talking about like her date and how great it was and drunkenly slurring about like oh yeah we went to the Surly goat and Erica just leads over and it's like it sucks oh it was really fun actually we went to the sirly goat hor oh just like okay Erica thanks thanks for letting us know just had to get that in there didn't you yeah she was on fire again this episode I uh I loved her like I think it was in a confessional where she's like oh no one complains about my [ __ ] I don't have a small esophagus like just the call back to the esophagus storyline from the beginning of the season so can can I ask speaking of Erica something stood out with her maybe I can get your your feedback on on this too because I was curious as I was watching this uh there's a scene where Erica is talking to dor and she mentioned something about something that Dort said in a dinner I think Erica is saying I expected at the very end of the episode Erica expects people to say sorry that kind of thing yeah um and then there's a flashback that goes back to a dinner in 2020 with a single sentence that dor said and this is apparently why Erica is mad at at her which again I I don't know the timelines of these things but this is like a single I don't know what I said at a dinner four years ago you know to to be able to call these things back that was another thing I was like okay there's some of these things are staged and pulled back and you know that aspect of things um or maybe I mean I'd be curious to hear what you guys think if I was reading into that a little bit too much that this is obviously fake to pull something from a 2020 dinner I think like it seems like she is legitimately dwelling on this and so I guess for con for context on this uh Erica Jane was married to Tom gerardi who is like a lawyer that defrauded uh victims of like Airline crashes of millions and millions of dollars and then he got he got caught and her life basically fell apart and there's all these questions swirling around like did she know that all this money that they had was the result of defrauding all these all these victims and people like expecting her to have so much more like empathy and compassion and and she got really hung up on this one like Civil Trial that or one element of a Civil Trial that surrounded these earrings that she had which were like $750,000 um and so that was in litigation and she just like she didn't even win that that part it just got like moved to another like venue or something like that and she thinks that she's like being like Vindicated she thinks that she should get an apology that all the everyone that was talking about that she probably knew or that she should just turn these earrings over or whatever she thinks that she deserves an apology for from everyone so it's really all about her like selfishness and trying to like just claw back at like getting some piece of the person that she used to be in some piece of her Integrity back I think that's why she's so hyper hyper focused on it okay okay yeah that's that's a good explanation and they do mention the earring I remember that and and her expecting basically I think it is realistic that she would still be hanging on to something that was said four years ago because she's that kind of person then more power to her I'm trying to remember what I had for breakfast this morning like so if you can remember that from for I mean that's that's great but my mind is not realistic like I can't remember that I mean she's like she's kind of like a real monster like she probably should have just let the earrings go and like like okay I'm like making restitution towards the the victims but her focus is like solely on like selfish personal motivations and um it makes for great television but it doesn't mean she's a great that's fair that's fair okay yeah the Evil's coming from the same place as the music um did you either of you guys have any other highlights from this episode I found it kind of lightweight to be honest I didn't find it the the the most exciting juicy episode compared to Vander pump rules where I thought there was a there's a lot more beat on that bone yeah okay let's let's talk about Vander pump rules before we do that um let's uh let's give our Stars for this episode of Beverly Hills uh pick one one to three people that you thought were real real standouts and we'll start with you Dan uh I think for me was Kyle um I really like the scene where she was talking with her I don't if she was talking with her husband if she was talking with somebody else but she was really pushing to be independent of her husband's Fortune with her own career sound like he was supportive of that and again I don't know all the context but I got the impression that I think it was Sutton was not that way and so I don't know I I just really that stood out to me as something like she's really just trying to you know be her own person and have have a good relationship and and I mean be independent and I'm I'm all for that so I thought that was that was good yeah totally this like we are seeing Kyle become more independent this season and the the off off camera dialogue was all these questions surrounding her relationship and with with um her husband Mo and um just watching the scenes that we get between her and her husband together it doesn't like I'm not saying that none of that talk is like true or whatever but it just doesn't have like that that urgency or that that tension that you were expecting from a a relationship that's like truly in trouble they the way that they were able to like discuss things they were at odds over certain things but it didn't seem overly troubled to me but that was just my read on it but yeah I agree I think like we saw a lot of Kyle um wrestling with you know what what Independence means in terms of like the what she's seeking like CU I think you're you're right she is seeking Independence um but she is scared of what that what that means for her family uh did you have any other stars there Dan no that was no she she was really kind of what stood out to me there cool uh Dylan yeah um I do like that scene with Kyle and marito actually just because it was kind of there was kind of an interest tension to it I thought and it was it was slightly awkward in some ways and I do think that Craig to what you're saying like there's probably more issues with the marriage that they're kind of not ready to address and they're kind of have like agreed to do this scene but they feel like they're kind of circling it around it and just keep going back to like just talking about their businesses because that's what they want to talk about and it's easier to talk about it be like oh new offices open it up everything going great produce a good new show right yeah uh and um but I feel like there's kind of like a weird tension going on at the same time where there are things that are just not being addressed that I think that I almost feel like they're both kind of doing a bit of a Mexican Star down being like are we going to talk about the real issues or aren't we well we've got the cameras going and and we're filming this moment they and I feel like they kind of don't and there's that there's a bit of a let down to that but it's also interesting just to kind of to me anyways feel like there's like a certain tension around the unaddressed things that in there so let's give Kyle a second star for that scene but I think Sutton's got to take first star because this has been her show lately and uh and she's a lot of fun um let's give a third star to I can't remember his name the but the guy that Sutton was going on a date with let's give him a star Steve was yeah Steve pretty camera ready he's ready to he's he's he's he's got his lines ready he he's ready to be bit of a self-deprecating goofball taking two others to a little bit of a dive bar looking to have some fun uh maybe more excited to be on camera than he is actually excited to be with Sutton not too sure but lik to happen there he's got he's you know he's got a bit of a camera ready personality let let's see some more of Steve sure I like him yeah I think that he seemed like legitimately into Sutton or at least it seemed less about being in front of the camera than a lot of the people that we've seen come in as potential like suitors for other Housewives so I liked him I thought yeah he was like awkward but fun and really matched her energy so yeah I agree with your going off the board for the for the Steve pick um my picks for this would be Sutton is my number one pick I think she's just been giving so much this season um also Erica is just a real like um an enigma she's she's um just amazing to watch and this real monster that we're seeing at the at the bottom of the hill on her her character Arc I think it's a really compelling thing we don't often get to see these people who are these true like monstrous villains they like to exit at the top and not get like shown on camera when they're at their bottom the fact that we're getting with Erica I think is really compelling so love love seeing her and yeah Kyle is the other one for all the reasons that that you guys stated uh cool well let's get into Vanderpump Rules uh we're going to do another 20 seconds to summarize what you what stood up to you for the episode Dan so I'll start that right now okay well uh initially it was a meeting a guy named Tom at his birthday party and then there was a the whole emo night at a at a club where we find out that apparently he was sleeping with someone named Kristen like 10 years ago or something and then beyond I mean from there there's a lot of conversation okay just a lot of conversation between different groups and it it was a lot I was trying to figure out who this Tom guy was because it seems like everybody I mean obviously you know this is what happens when you just watch one episode right you're kind of thrown into it yeah um but what confused me about that was I didn't realize until near the end of the episode there's actually another Tom isn't there because they kept calling him sand ofal and I was like wait who's who's wait that yeah so I think yeah that was a little confusing yeah I I think you you nailed though one like fulcrum for this this episode and that is Tom sandavol this was like his his episode it was him versus the world and I think that's something that we're going to see this entire season um but yeah that's definitely the the main Crux of of what we saw today let's uh let's talk about how this was how how this story was told um Dan we'll start with you was there any sort of artistic choices that you saw that stood out to you I think I guess there were a few things that um stood out to me in this I don't know if it say artistic almost a marketing aspect where um they're talking about the podcast that Shino is doing I think that's how you say her name um and to me I was as a podcaster I was also kind of like okay what do you what did you actually say on here and they kind of allude to it but it's also very obvious that you're supposed to go listen to this other episode and you know to go do that and so it was like okay they're marketing for this um and so I think that was it was done in a clever way I I mean I I picked up on I'm sure other people pick up on that too but I thought they did a good job of doing that where it's they have these these multiple things and that in and of itself can be an art form as far as you know when you're editing and making it still entertaining and not so obvious that this isn't add for my podcast over here yeah yeah totally um Dylan how about you um yeah there aren't like specific instances of artistic choices that are really standing out to me just the general feeling that as you've kind of alluded to uh both of you guys Tom sandall's presence is like a gravitational force that's just kind of like warping the space and time around everybody else's relationships right now and I just find that uh really interesting and it gives it gives so much energy to the to the show right now I think just like you know like how it starts out too and we get like I guess this is an artistic choice we we do actually like kind of Crosscut between uh sand DeVille talking about how his little conversation with James went to the guests at his party including Tom Schwarz and and James Kennedy discussing how it went describing his version of it to um to you know the girls and the other people who are going out to to emo night so that is is nice that we we do get instead of they don't just present the two back toback we do get a couple instances of them cutting from one version of the of it to the next and we get to see how they're both kind of working in the immediate aftermath of this little conversation to try to build a narrative around it that that makes them look better uh that makes the other person look like the the annoying unreasonable one uh and I since that's how the episode starts and that's kind of how we're we're framed going forward is like you know w What does it mean to talk to Tom sandal right now and like is that going to like tarish you uh with everybody else afterwards or can you talk to Tom sandal and like bring something out of it that will be like useful when you go talk to other people give you like some social capital and I think the way everybody is just kind of trying to navigate about like what are the new rules surrounding Tom sadal now that he's back right is like super interesting to me yeah because we even saw Sheena she didn't want to be seen talking to him she was open to the conversation but she wanted to do it in the alley so yeah totally I don't want to be seen but let's put this on national TV exactly yeah um I there was a symbol that stood out to me and that was emo knite I really liked the idea that we had all of these characters um that were at emo night they are all in some way um they they're profiting off of this like um this manufactured sadness and anger that the public has towards Tom sandal and and uh Rachel lves and and so to see all of these people at emo night where it's about like having this this manufactured sad music that has been like commodified and them like reveling in it and just like enjoying it yeah holding up balloons that say sad as [ __ ] on them which is what an image is that right it's a balloon like a symbol of partying having a good time all good things full of helium floating in the air and then they print the letters sad as [ __ ] on it yeah totally because all of these people are they're they're profiting from The Fallout of of scand of all this um and Dan for some context here last season on Vander pump rules it was revealed that uh Tom sandal and another cast member who hasn't returned as a result of this um they were sleeping together and Tom sandal was in a relationship with Arana who we see on on this episode for like nine years and so it it's this huge explosive bombshell um but it really like there wasn't a lot of that presented within The Narrative of season 10 of Vanderpump Rules not until the very last episode and the the reunions did that become become prominent it really took on a life of its own online and how the fan base is engaging with this and really like latching onto this this hatred and anger that they have um and every single one of these cast members that we saw grouped at this emo night are also you know putting out podcasts or their own line of like t-shirts or whatever and they're all like profiting off of this anger that there exists within the fan base towards Tom sandville and and Rachel so I thought it was really funny that we saw them all group together at emo night yeah totally and how um kind of interesting is it to contrast that kind of like you said said sort of a manufactured spectacle of uh indulging in negative feelings or like the idea of negative feelings as like a party game um compared to like when like uh Lisa has to deal with Tom sandal uh implying that maybe he's gone to a very dark place and has like a like a very real sadness and like and having to navigate like okay like it's possible he's just saying these things because he wants sympathy now that's a very real possibility but also you have to take that seriously too because you kind of especially somebody like Lisa H has lost somebody close to her to Suicide like you can you can never just afford to to to assume that that or that somebody is just pretending to to to to be dealing with like you know depressive thoughts or whatever you you you you have like an obligation to take that seriously um so that kind of like very Stark like almost like reality breaking idea of like actual uh Sadness the possibility being invoked of like like a real like depression or something that could like have repercussions uh contrasted with like the plastic uh spectacle of like fake emo sadness is like just it's very entertaining and interesting as like the the contrast between like the idea of an emotion and the the the real difficult to manage reality of emotions I guess yeah totally and to see that emo night you know um intercut with the shots of Tom's party where he's got like the tiniest birthday cake I've ever seen like held out to him and the the the room is cast in all these blue hues and it really seems like a very depressing scene it was a a noticeable contrast from the the jovial attitude that took place at this emo night where you know they were celebrating anger and sadness yeah and how real is I just want to say about the em how real real is laa for being like I don't even know what emo is like like like yeah I'm sure have the people at that party don't know what emo is either like at least you're saying it you just like is it Nick back I don't pretty totally uh let's let's get into our highlights Dan what were your highlights from this episode um let's see my highlight for this episode let's go my notes sorry um I think I I think some something that stood out to me as as a highlight there is you kind of alluded to talking about the the difference between the emo night and celebrating that but something that happened at Tom's birthday party I noticed he was complaining about somebody who didn't text him but he wasn't they're celebra like they were they're cele his birthday there were a bunch of people there actually celebrating his birthday but he was focused on the one person that didn't text him um and then there was also talking about there's was it Ali I think was Tom's friend's name who passed away so he was dealing with a lot of that but a lot of the other people who I assume I assume everybody in this group they're all friends I assume I don't know you have a close friend best friend passes away and somebody else like you you got to be understanding and empathetic I just I felt there maybe this is a dark highlight but I didn't feel like there was much empathy for anybody else as far as far as that or even enjoying the moment I mean at your birthday party enjoying the people who who are there uh as opposed to focusing on I don't know it seemed like the the highlights for me were they were highlighting the wrong things they were focusing on the wrong things like you're at your birthday party somebody didn't text you I I don't know how many birthdays I've had where a friend didn't text me okay right I'm at a birthday party and there's a bunch of people here celebrating let's celebrate and I don't know it just seemed like there were a lot of negative highlights yeah totally yeah I I think like one thing that stood up to me about that comment about Tom not getting a text and so the the person that he was sad about not getting a text from was uh was Rachel the the former cowork or former co-star that was involved in this this Scandal I think that there are maybe some feelings there that he still has but um it seems like he is like grasping at whatever he can find to try to elicit some sympathy because he's coming into the season as a very un unsympathetic character and um yeah it was interesting that he would latch latch on to that um did you have any other highlights from this Dan no not in particular I mean it took a little bit to wrap my head around that aspect of of all of it and so yeah but yeah I think it was um it was interesting because it it seemed very different than what we're talking about with uh real housewives like that con that concept of it it seemed a lot darker than I was expecting a reality show to be I guess I mean granted there are dark times and people lives and I can certainly understand that but it that aspect of the them focusing on that seemed darker than I was expecting yeah like tonally it is a very different vibe than real house Vives of Beverly Hills there's actually a YouTuber named bro day Chanel that just put out a an episode about um The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City's most recent season as well as the the scand ofal and talking about how Bravo reality TV shows typically have something that they refer to as the Bravo Wink in terms of how um the tone that they take on when they're presenting um when they're presenting things on screen how Vanderpump Rules has become almost void of of that and really shifted um the uh perspective that it takes when it's presenting things um and yeah you can totally feel a different vibe when you're watching Vander pump rules versus something like Housewives now yeah totally I and I mentioned last episode that I feel like already in this young season it feels like loss is a big theme and then this new episode it just kind of gets pushed up to another level when there's like the Spectre of like people who are actually lost to Suicide being referenced in the in in the show it's like yeah it is getting kind of kind of heavy at points but I I appreciate that that they're willing to go there yeah they're not shying away from it totally uh Dylan what are your highlights from this episode uh my main highlight is the Revelation that Lisa has Ken saved in her contacts as [Laughter] husband um other than that uh I do like I I enjoy schwarz's dilemma too where he's like uh you know talking to sad Deval about his meeting with James and how he's he's like so torn between like James kind of offered him an olive branch earlier and it would be like important for Schwarz to have like bit of an alliance with James since as we can see like when he goes to EO night he needs so badly to find a way to get like a firm grip back in the F friend group he really wants that door to be back open to him he needs that uh he can't be totally ostracized from them and uh and James wanting being willing to like you know be buddies with him is kind of the easiest way in so he doesn't want to to to be totally to uh agreeing with sandal when he's like oh [ __ ] James just came here like an [ __ ] or whatever but is still like always going to be tied to sand ofal to and and then just the bind that Schwarz is in be that if it's like sval versus James it's gonna be very awkward for Schwarz and his attempts to get back into the group um yeah totally and you know what one thing that while I was watching this I was I was thinking like Schwarz almost seems less connected to this group than Tom sandal does because at least like Tom sandal is connected to this group through the the conflict whereas you know Schwarz put all his like all his chips on on sandal and um he's just kind of on on an island and then we we get a uh a confessional from Schwarz where he's talking about how he he'd rather have the hate than than the indifference and I think that like he's totally feeling way more on the outs than than sandal because at least like people are thinking about sandal and that's all they're thinking about in some cases uh whereas Schwarz is just like a nuisance when he comes around oh yeah it's so awkward when he sits down with a group and like and half of them don't want him there and the other half are ambivalent about his presence and he just you know forces himself to continue sitting regardless because that's what he feels like he has to do he can't like just walk away from the stable and be a totally ostracized and alone uh he did hit on the right strategy to like go to sha first who's who's the easiest person to to befriend and immediately go in with like oh I like the glass it's like early 2000s like Britney right and of course she's like yeah totally like that's and you know they know how to get to Shea sandal does basically does the exact same like oh the glass is yeah you look like you rode in from a shn TW video and she's like yeah right early 2000s right totally they know what you got to say but uh but the other nuts are going to be tougher to crack than Shea is and and Ariana is making it very clear that she just doesn't want schs there so there was just such palpable awkwardness uh and that then he even said something to Ariana like oh why are you like the queen of the group and it's like did you not get the memo that's the new configuration now it's like she is she's the queen of the group so I don't know how this is gonna go for you but I'm enjoying his the very awkward position that he's been put in yeah it's funny because it feels like a lot of the um like the uh expositional responsibility is being placed on his shoulders like he needs to bring these two sides together and get them like to Lake Tahoe at the same time and he's just this awkward like dummy fumbling around trying to drive the story forward in a way that's going to work in order to make good television and there is a a ton of real actual resistance to this and there's a huge block of people that are um trying to use all of their power that they hold within the sort of meta power Dynamic of this this show um and being like no I'm not going to go if Tom sandal is there and we're not going to film and you're not going to have a show they're not saying those words but that's like really the subtext here and to to put this responsibility on Tom Schwarz is um a really uh unexpected choice but he actually to me makes the most sense just because like his um he's always been about trying to get people to like him and really like trying to crack people and he's not like a strategic guy he doesn't have like the the smarts to really get the job done but he does have the charm within this group in order to to get it done so um he's not the person that I was necessarily expecting to try to bring this group together although now that I think about it I don't know who else would be a better fit um but yeah it's it was unexpected that's for sure yeah and it's it's fun to watch because Schwarz has never been the guy who really makes things happen like you say k doesn't have that toolkit he's not the [ __ ] disturber he's not like the guy who who goes and uh and changes people's minds and gets them to do things and now he he I feels like he has no choice but to be that guy and just not know how to do it it's kind of similar to his relationship with the restaurant uh that he has with sand Deval when you know sandal had to take a leave out of absence and was shortz is complaining to him about it he was like I don't know you could have like told me what to do or something like he's he just seems like helpless he's like you know like like you're the one who makes things happen I don't know how to make things happen and now like in the restaurant in the show in his life he's suddenly in a position where he somehow has to make things happen and he just doesn't really know how to do it so it's just great because he's such an awkward guy yeah totally um did you have any other highlights Dylan um I do think it's a really funny way for sand Deval to deny being a narcissist when Sheena calls him a narcissist and he says that's actually not the definition of a narcissist you should look it up like yeah you're really really beating those allegations there man um and um and I just want to say that the guy that that Katie is like going out a with the guitarist or whatever somebody from the bed um I I hope to see more of this because like from the way that she describes it where he's like oh yeah we just started talking and he was like oh I don't know too much about tequila you should tell me all you know about tequila it just sounds like okay this guy is like horny horny if he's just going up to Katie and be like oh um I was really looking for somebody to tell me everything they know about tequila what this exotic drink you're talking about so yeah let's see some of that guy please in the future just to learn more about the history of tequila right exactly um I think we touched on most of my highlights here the one other little like funny moment that uh that I had written down was this idea of sober curious just like Tom says that he's like sober curious and Ally latching on to that as like this label that like oh yeah that's kind of where I am on my journey as well just like looking for some sort of label and trying to put themselves in some sort of box that um they can use to like uh almost like steal the Valor of sobriety it was really funny it is really funny and I get it like I get the idea of being like I'm I'm interested in cutting back on drinking and maybe potentially moving towards SRI in the future but I can totally understand from the perspective of somebody like lala who speaks up who's like you know has struggled with uh with with drink and has been like actually sober for years just being like that's not a [ __ ] real thing don't you know that's not yeah that's not how you talk about these things [Laughter] actually yeah I thought that was interesting I was I mean maybe it's just me but I was like is that when I was watching I was like is that actually a real thing that I just didn't know about yeah awesome well I think that about covers the highlights let's quickly go around and pick our Our Stars from this Dan who are your stars um I think I mean my number one star was uh Lisa I just I liked that she was kind of the therapist in this uh episode like she was there talking to Tom and I think James was his name at a different time talking to um and she seemed like she was actually trying to help like I they weren't Tom in particular wasn't really listening but it seemed like like she was actually trying to help like you would expect a therapist to do I don't think she was an actual therapist but um but that I mean that made her the star of the show for me because I just like that amidst all this drama and things that are going on like she was actually trying to help yeah totally um yeah and I I mean she does have a little bit of an ulterior motive trying to get everyone to go out there and promote the opening of the the sexiest restaurant in Lake Tahoe but um yeah she uh it was it was nice to see her in a little bit of a different capacity than we have seen her historically on this show because she has always been someone that is kind of put on a um a different platitude than the the rest of the cast She's always had a bit of a power Dynamic with with them but here she was like really listening and talking as peers and so that was interesting to see because like she's not really their B Lo anymore within the uh the world of the show I guess she's executive producer on this show so she is probably technically their their boss but um yeah it it was interesting to see that um Dylan what what are your stars yeah I do like the shout out to Lisa that that's um that's she did have a good episode I thought I don't don't always love Lisa but this was actually a good showing for showing some like you know humanity and uh and having some decent words to say I do think I feel like the first TI has to be sandal because he is like I said the gravitational force that's kind of making everything happen so not because um you know not passing a moral judgment by giving him first star but saying he's he's the one making it work they're they're in his orbit right now so uh they're inorbit even by avoiding him and so sure let's give him the first star um let's give uh let's give a second star a shoa for riding in on a Shia Twain motorcycle and uh and so start to Billy Lee because she's there uh hasn't really done anything yet but like have her back uh you know we haven't seen her in a while and you know what there needs to be at least some people on team sandal right if you know for the drama we need some people to be on his side so let's let's see more of Billy Lee becoming an actual character on the show again uh as somebody who's uh on team sandal even if she's just on team sandal because they've slept together uh I choose to believe that because every other time there's been rumors about sadal sleeping with somebody it's always been true so I'll believe that one too uh get ahead of the game there but uh but let's see more of Billy Lee so yeah I'll give her a star just because I'm glad to see her back yeah and you know what is so compelling about the people that are in Tom Sandoval's orbit right now is that there's a lot higher Stakes for them like all the people that are surrounding Ariana right like there's there's that's like I don't know there resistance so easy to do but all these people that are you know like hanging on and trying to get famous or like whatever their motivation is to be in his orbit um it's just like more compelling there's more like desperation there there's like more thirst there's and that's like maybe it's not pretty but that is something that is needed in order to have these like compelling Dynamics on on TV so yeah I think that's a really good uh call out um yeah my uh my number one pick is going to be Tom sandal for sure number two Sheena um and yeah those are those are really my actually I'll give number three to Tom Schwarz because um I think the work that he has to do is um work that he's not used to really doing and having the the weight of the story being on his shoulders and trying to drive things forward um his responsibility he's not used to and he's handling it in a very like fabulously fabulously awkward way so love love to see that yeah uh did you guys have any other final thoughts before we close things up here well it covers everything I had cool good awesome thank you so much for doing this Dan do you want to let everyone know where they can find you yeah thanks for having me on it was a lot of fun uh you can find me at Bas on a true story awesome Dylan how about yourself nice um I just want to say I'm really stoked to listen to your show Dad I haven't listened to it yet but that sounds really interesting um I'll just I haven't mentioned this for a while but I'll I'll shout out to um a limited show I did a little while ago a podcast called the devil you don't which is about American history and cryptozoology um so yeah check that out if you want to hear me blaber on about some historical [ __ ] that sounds right up my alley I will listen to that uh I I'm Craig midwinter you can just find me here or our Instagram Bravo Outsider uh we're on Tik Tok YouTube just search US you'll find us go check out Bravo outsider. comom if you've got a VR headset we just launched a beta VR experience of the podcast maybe you're on it right now and we're like right in your periphery um but uh yeah check check that out um until next week keep on wi you can stroke Craig's beard I hear in the V [Laughter] [Music] are